Curse

Another hobo · Aug 13, 2007, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Interrupting 1 second or less skills has always been a problem for me, even with a short/recurve bow. I find it very hard unless i am practically adjacent to the target.

This is without FW or RTW and i was just wondering if this is normal or if my reflexes are worse than i thought.

If u have any tips i would greatly appreciate your help

Thomas.knbk · Aug 13, 2007, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Do you interrupt purely on reflexes or do you interrupt based on your predictions and repeating habits in the enemy's casting behaviour? If no.1 it's not that bad, if no.2 you should be able to interrupt 1 sec casts.

Another hobo · Aug 13, 2007, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Well, i do interrupt based on repeating behavior, such as an easy to guess dismiss condition. BUT, i am not satisfied with my interrupt ratio that way. If a monk casts glyph of lesser energy, a full second cast, i NEED to get it. Many times i cannot from a distance.

I just feel that maybe some other rangers can... either that or they are better at guessing than i am.

Relambrien · Aug 13, 2007, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Do you interrupt purely on reflexes or do you interrupt based on your predictions and repeating habits in the enemy's casting behaviour? If no.1 it's not that bad, if no.2 you should be able to interrupt 1 sec casts.

Let me elaborate on this using (zomg) MATH!

The cast time of Distracting Shot/Savage Shot is one-half of a second, .5s.

Latency can be anything, but I'll assume 100ms for simplicity, or 0.1s.

This means that out of pure reaction, you can't interrupt BEFORE 0.6s. If you can react within 0.3s (assuming 0.1s for estimated flight time), then you can get it.

Standard human reaction time is around one quarter of a second. When you add in being able to recognize the skill being cast and determine whether you should interrupt it, and it becomes fairly difficult to do it COMPLETELY out of reaction.

But, if you anticipate that a certain skill is coming up, you eliminate a lot of the "recognition" phase of reaction, making interrupting it a lot easier. Even if you only fire after reacting to the skill being cast, knowing that the skill is going to be cast allows you to react more quickly.

Another hobo · Aug 13, 2007, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Thanks for the statistics, however, there are still a few problems. According to guildwiki recurve flight time is .4 secs, and assuming ill be a little closer than the max range maybe .3 on average? If you are attacking a target and hit say.. savage shot, there will be xtra time added to the skill use for arrow reloading unless the interrupt is used directly after an attack. THAT factors into the time it takes to react also.

So this means there will be less than .2 seconds to look and react? Im not sure that this game works in the pure mathematical way that u suggest, but thanks for the help again.

I am just wondering if this is normal for a ranger? Can GOOD rangers get those 1 sec casts or is it VERY rare?

Seef II · Aug 13, 2007, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Something everyone should know: attacks with an activation time actually fire off halfway into the displayed number. The 0.5 s dshot includes afterswing, so the timing on physical interrupts are the same as mesmer ones.

Twitch interrupting isn't bad for 1 s casts, but sometimes you end up killing a dwayna's kiss rather than the LoD. It's at 0.75 where latency + reaction time usually becomes a problem, and where you have to start playing the psychological game to interrupt.

Another hobo · Aug 13, 2007, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Thanks seef i never knew, but i still have my doubts. I cant see how they can tag a .5 second activation time on a projectile that needs time to travel through the air. There is a clear and visual difference when u use savage shot on a flatbow and on a recurve bow, 1 of them is obviously faster.

This means that it is NOT identical to mesmer interrupts, since they skip the whole fight duration altogether.

Unless u mean that the full .5 seconds is including just the bow action, then it still is not identical to mesmer interrupts.

And i do try to guess my opponent and read them, but sometimes u burn out ur interrupts and let them get a very easy 2 second cast through, and that annoys me greatly since i just threw away 2 shots on guessing and also missed an easy catch.

Seamus Finn · Aug 14, 2007, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seef II

Something everyone should know: attacks with an activation time actually fire off halfway into the displayed number. The 0.5 s dshot includes afterswing, so the timing on physical interrupts are the same as mesmer ones.

I don't quite follow this. Are you saying the arrow leaves teh bow at 1/4 sec? Even then, flight time is a critical factor in interrupting on rangers. Mesmer interrupts are clearly better for just twitching out an interupt on a spell. With FC it takes less than a 1/4 sec for the interrupt to hit the target.

With Ranger, I look at the interrupts much differently. You, of course, can try twitching stuff out, and I won't be the least bit surprised when people come into this thread talking about how you can twitch everything on a ranger, but my main success in hitting key interrupts follow this logic: when I "interrupt" on ranger, I use it more like an ele would gale. I block out zones of time on people where they can't cast because there is an interrupt headed their way, but we both know that they REALLY want to cast at that moment. I don't view Ranger as interrupt chracters as much as pressure characters. If you cut off optimal casting, it is just another dimension of pressure you are applying with a character that already applys pressure with condi spread.

There are lots of other ways to use the interrupts on a ranger for play making that would use more communication and all that, but I think this general theory results in a more effective stand ranger than the guy that shadows the LoD the whole match trying to twitch out a Dshot on LoD, for instance.

Relambrien · Aug 14, 2007, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seef II

Something everyone should know: attacks with an activation time actually fire off halfway into the displayed number. The 0.5 s dshot includes afterswing, so the timing on physical interrupts are the same as mesmer ones.

From what my guildies told me, that's only true for melee interrupts. Ranger interrupts still only fire at 0.5s. Of course, there's a way to test it. In a controlled setting, get three people, two of which are Rangers. Have him dshot the third character at regular intervals while you attempt to dshot his dshot, and hit it at 75% or so and see what happens.

Of course, if you're saying the bar fills at a 0.25s speed, then all you have to do is use a .5s skill and a .25s skill at the same time and see which one finishes first. An easier but more complex method would be to record each skill activating, then set the recordings side by side and line up the start so that they start simultaneously, and see if one fills up faster.

Seef II · Aug 14, 2007, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Then get out a hammer guy with Belly Smash (1 s activation) and see if the bars for that and Dshot fill at the same time. I recall Belly Smash being substantially slower. Bring Flourish for that nasty 30 s recharge though.

Nilator · Aug 14, 2007, 02:55 AM // 02:55

I know that I interrupt on instinct, I just seem to know when people are going to cast stuff, I can't count the times that I've interrupted 1/2 sec casting time spells. Maybe some people aren't just suited for interrupting. But one thing I can advise is just watch a few PvP matches that have an interrupter, don't watch the interrupter, watch the person he's attempting to interrupt. Learn from the caster and see how he casts, when he casts, and when the other person tries to interrupt. One, more thing I can advise is throw an interrupt in there when they havn't cast in a while.

Another hobo · Aug 14, 2007, 03:04 AM // 03:04

I can guess just fine, and yes i usually hit something 1 out of 2 or 3 that i toss out, what i cant do is interrupt those hard to keep track of 30 second glyph of lesser energy or whatever when i NEED to.

Guessing isnt the problem, hitting what i need to on those 1 second casts IS.

Elrodien · Aug 14, 2007, 10:27 AM // 10:27

I think interupting is more about phsycology than pure technique. Of course, knowing the best position, best bow to use etc is important but you will get more results from reading players skill casting patterns and playing mind games with them.

Going by pure technique a Reversal of Fortune or a Protective Spirit should be impossible to interupt, but if you know for a fact that your target is about to cast them, you WILL interupt them.

Reading the game and your target will give you more results over reflexes.

Dzan · Aug 14, 2007, 10:38 AM // 10:38

Luckily for you, everything really important to interrupt, Res Sig, Aegis, Diversion, Reckless Haste etc. are all much longer than 1 second casts. Not interrupting a random Dismiss Condition here or there isn't going to matter in the long run of a GVG match. Shutting down the above skills very much could.

Patrick Smit · Aug 14, 2007, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relambrien

Let me elaborate on this using (zomg) MATH!

The cast time of Distracting Shot/Savage Shot is one-half of a second, .5s.

Latency can be anything, but I'll assume 100ms for simplicity, or 0.1s.

This means that out of pure reaction, you can't interrupt BEFORE 0.6s. If you can react within 0.3s (assuming 0.1s for estimated flight time), then you can get it.

Standard human reaction time is around one quarter of a second. When you add in being able to recognize the skill being cast and determine whether you should interrupt it, and it becomes fairly difficult to do it COMPLETELY out of reaction. Maybe the server corrects for this, I do not know it.

But, if you anticipate that a certain skill is coming up, you eliminate a lot of the "recognition" phase of reaction, making interrupting it a lot easier. Even if you only fire after reacting to the skill being cast, knowing that the skill is going to be cast allows you to react more quickly.

You forgot enemy needs to send commands too to server, so you are informed too late what the person is actually doing. So a person with slow connection should be more difficult to interrupt if this is correct (if not guessing but reacting).

BlackEagle · Aug 14, 2007, 04:23 PM // 16:23

The largest part of rangers is predictive interrupts imo. Obviously, you need to be interrupting the longer casts: diversion, hard res, aegis etc. But, at the same time, there is no point having a 5 second recharge interrupt if you are only using it every 15 seconds when something comes along that you can easily interrupt.

Some rangers will be able to twitch interrupt 1 second casts, but a lot more of it is predictive interrupting and general awareness. Is a warrior of theirs snared in your backline and getting spiked? If so, you can know that the monk is going to cast the instant he gets in range, so you put an interrupt on him etc.

There is no way really that you can practice getting better at twitch interrupts other than practice. As I said though, there are far more important things to worry about to becoming a good ranger, than being able to twitch a certain cast time spells.

Relambrien · Aug 14, 2007, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seef II

Then get out a hammer guy with Belly Smash (1 s activation) and see if the bars for that and Dshot fill at the same time. I recall Belly Smash being substantially slower. Bring Flourish for that nasty 30 s recharge though.

I did you one better. I recorded myself using Distracting Shot and Power Return, the latter being a 1/4s cast. As it turns out, the bars filled at exactly the same speed (Power Return looked -slightly- (and I mean -slightly-) faster, but it was probably just me. I didn't have the frame values so I can't be sure.)

Of course, it may still be possible to interrupt Dshot on the aftercast, but then again it may not be. That would be far too much of a pain to test and largely irrelevant to the topic.

So, to revise the math:

Since the arrow actually fires at 0.25s, it is substantially easier to interrupt 1s casts than I originally thought. There's still the question of latency, however. Patrick Smit pointed out about the enemy having to send commands too, but I've never had a problem in which my skills went off and such but everyone else stopped moving. I -think- the latency meter on the interface measures how long it takes for the server to contact your computer and back, but it might just be one way; I don't know. So I'll keep assuming .1s since it seems about right.

Now it becomes impossible to interrupt prior to .35 seconds, and then you have flight time. Assuming the .4s flight time for recurve is accurate, then I'll go ahead and cut it down to .2s since you'll probably be around half-range anyway. With instantaneous reaction, this causes an interrupt no quicker than 0.55s. So you have four tenths of a second to recognize the skill, react to it, then stop moving and hit the button. With practice this should be pretty easy.

Which reminds me, I forgot to include in my previous calculations how long it takes to reach up and touch the key for your interrupt. But that varies with key configuration so I'm not going to go into it. If you have your finger hovering over it, then it's pretty negligible anyway.

But yeah, the only way to get better at twitch interrupting is to practice. RA isn't a bad place to practice pure twitch interruption, since the players are often bad enough that their pure randomness in skill use prevents any discernible patterns. It's not a good place to practice Ranger in general, but just for pure twitch interruption, it's alright.

As has been said though, Rangers are more about predictive interrupting. Leave the twitch interrupts to the Mesmer with no flight time, generally.

Andrew Patrick · Aug 14, 2007, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Well most of my interruption experience is with melee characters, but one thing I have seen that helps is to watch your targets movement. If they are kiting, and randomly stop, chances are they are about to cast so if you get ready to interrupt right at that point, you can speed your reaction up just enough to catch it (sometimes). Playing the profession you are interrupting also helps a lot. For example, I play a lot of monk, so I know all the meta builds and most of the common ways people run them. That helps me a lot when I am trying to kill a monk since I can usually predict what they are going to do 3 or 4 skills in advance.

Good communication with the rest of your team is also good. If you know your allies have spread a lot of conditions, and your target is an RC monk, you can bet their finger is on the RC button. Same thing if your team is pressuring multiple soft targets and your target is an LoD/Infuse--you can predict when they will use LoD based on when their parties health is low. Direct communication via vent of TS is great for that, and also having your score-chart open to "party health" is great whenever you are up against an LoD.

Tegato · Aug 15, 2007, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Here's an interesting tip. A common monk will almost usually cast something after they get up from being KD'd. It's just habit, or the will to survive.

Eitherway, expect it, ;P.

Ranger Li · Aug 15, 2007, 12:43 AM // 00:43

When interrupting there are usually three different ways:

By Eye: Watching the bar and reacting as you see skills be used
By Prediction: Noticing that the neemy just used Infuse, so they're bound to follow up with LoD
Estimates: Similar to prediction, but utilizing recharge times, ex you notice a warder put up melee, 20 seconds later is the general time they'll be renewing the ward.

For each of these situations variables must be considered, the bow you use, flight time, positioning, opponent team stress, time, etc. When interrupting by eye your best bet is to be as close to your opponent as possible while not completely giving away your target, this reduces flight time which may help you get into interrupting 1s casts. Prediction is based on situations and are the more "Random" interrupts, interrupts are based on patterns of your opponent, ex: You notice they always use SoD after they glyph, then they aegis. You can choose not to interrupt the glyph and aim for the SoD by risking it, or play it safe and interrupt the energy management, in either situation the monk is suffering from energy depletion, and thus placing well timed interrupts, you may interrupt/disable key skills. The final way, by Estimation is more time based, you notice your opponent uses Blinding Surge on average of every 4-6 seconds, in a high pressure situation against your opponent, their bsurge will try to reduce pressure by more frequent blinds (IF they are being remove, though this varies by situation), by placing Dshots at correctly timed moments, you may achieve a 3/4 sec cast interrupt, usually unlikely in most situations. Of course as a ranger you do not want to tary on one target, as most characters only have 2-3 detrimental skills, such as Wards/Aegis/Heals (lod). I would highly suggest watching the whole area, rather then being dedicated to solo shutdown.

-Prince